[foobar]

KVCC, I understand you ask for perfection. But there is a reason why your request is problematic.

The thing is that PB does not want to create a simulated world where everything seems real but nothing really ever happens. Take The Sims, for example. Yes, the realism in their daily life may be fascinating but none of those characters ever goes on an epic and dramatic quest to save the world.

What PB's primary intention is, is to tell us a story. Everything else has to submit to that. RISEN will not be a real-world simulation. Think of it more as a play in a theater. There are the actors on a stage and they follow a script and by that, they tell us a story.

It cannot be allowed that something interferes with the story telling. For example, when NPCs move around the world on their own, there's always the possibility that they get lost on the way because their path finding went wrong. Or they get attacked and killed by a monster. Even if you make them immortal, that fight could stop them long enough that they don't make it to a certain point where the story requires them to be. Even an immortal cahracter can fall down a chasm in a battle and be stuck down there.

Playing a role means following a script and that means first of all things you have to ensure that each actor can play his role when the time comes without interferences. How would you feel if you'd watch a movie with a dramatic showdown scene between the hero and the villain and while they have their little dialogue ("You can't stop me!" - "You won't get away with this!" etc.), suddenly a background actor just walks right through the scene because his "AI" tells him that by dawn he has to be on the market. And then another one. And maybe another one. Only a minor complication without much influence on the continuation of the story but it would still ruin the atmosphere of that moment. But there's more: Why don't they join this important battle for the sake of the world? On the other hand, if they do and the hero ends up with an advantage of five against one, it can hardly be called dramatic fight anymore.

The world around you and the things within it are primarily just the decor, the setting. But unlike a real play in a theater, in a RPG you have a non-linear plot with different paths and options that influence other options which influence yet another set of options. All the time. And there is no director (or prompter) who could set things right if they go wrong. Every possibility has to be covered by the script because all the actors (except you) are stupid and can't improvise even a tiny little bit (they're just parts of a program, what can you expect?). But it is difficult to foresee as game developer how the state of the world will be like exactly at a certain time in the play and prepare the script for that. Will the way still be clear? Will these people and those monsters still be alive? What if not? How can we still allow the plot to continue? And what will we do if that alternative is blocked either? So the only way to finish the game with a suspenseful storyline in a reasonable amount of time is to simply remove everything that might be a hindrance for the plot - and thus reducing the amount of possibilities you have to prepare for in the script down to a level that can be handled reasonably. It's a tradeoff - give something up and gain something else. You might not like it, but I see no other way to do it.

That's why the NPCs in shooters usually have a better AI and why you can destroy and rearrange more objects there. Because even if they have a story, they usually tell it through the cutscenes between the levels. Within each level, you just go and shoot (or sneak) your way through. A RPG tells the story through the world itself, through the people you talk to and through the things that happen to them. Because of that the world always has to be ready for the story and must not be allowed to change too far from what the storyline expects it to be. If, on the other hand, you make it a "Sims"-like game with a freely alterable world, you cannot have a tense, continuous storyline.

I prefer RPGs with a real story and therefore, I accept that I must give up realism and plausibility to a degree. Everything in the world has to be bound by the storyline, even the NPCs. And if you are bound, you cannot move freely anymore, that's the definition of it after all.

[The EvilAlex]

Can you believe that I actually read your post.

[TheDoctor]

KVCC, I understand you ask for perfection. But there is a reason why your request is problematic.

The thing is that PB does not want to create a simulated world where everything seems real but nothing really ever happens. Take The Sims, for example. Yes, the realism in their daily life may be fascinating but none of those characters ever goes on an epic and dramatic quest to save the world.

What PB's primary intention is, is to tell us a story. Everything else has to submit to that. RISEN will not be a real-world simulation. Think of it more as a play in a theater. There are the actors on a stage and they follow a script and by that, they tell us a story.

Very true. Though I did not read the rest of your dissertation.

[cifre]

haha!! alriiiiight!!
somebody does nothing on his desk right now!! Foobar, nothing to do on work when holidays knock on the door? )

[foobar]

haha!! alriiiiight!!
somebody does nothing on his desk right now!! Foobar, nothing to do on work when holidays knock on the door? )

Yes, yes. Go on and make fun of me when I try to explain something in detail. Next week, after the Deep Silver BBQ, I will remind you that you wanted me to post only brief texts without much info. Originally I planned on writing or translating a review for the english community but I can see clearly now that's unsolicited.

[cifre]

....arghhh.... ohhh....muss......must... shut..... must shut it... Shut up Clearance, I know you don't exist, go way!!
Pfieww.... Foobar, sorry for letting Clearance take over. Just plaid Penumbra in 6 hours last sunday and started to develop paranoia in a first phase!

[Rethon]

Foobar's novel in one sentence : It is impossible to tell a cRPG story, when the NPCs are not merely scripted, but rather acting of their own free will.
In my opinion this is perfectly true. It was also the reason why the Radiant AI was "toned down" dramatically by Bethesda in the final version of Oblivion. Otherwise it would have been most difficult to guide the player through the story.

[emperorzorn]

Is Foobar's comment available as a paperback ?
I would like to continue reading it on the train.

[Maladiq]

Also scripted routines are practical. When you are at a certain distance from a NPC, it dissapears so that the RAM and processing won;t be too crouded. With unpredictable routines, the computer would have to keep track of every NPC for every single moment on and on and generate random behaviour. That would be a killer. Also this distance dissapearing thiny is useful when npcs have to travel over long distances.

best example of how this could be useful: in the beginning of g1, after ou talk to diego, he sets out and starts walking away. If he didn;t dissapear you would find him right in front of you, everytime, killing your monsters and you couldn't get that first level.

As a good example for exploit: in g2 at one of the mininbg camps in the colony there is a guy who asks you to take him out of there. You say ok, i;ll get you out and then you can teleport to the pass. He will be generated automatically there.

[KVCC]

Well my computer could handle some crazy AI

i7 920
4GB DDR 3
HD 4850

If for any reason it couldn't the only thing that I would upgrade would be the graphics card, which atm is running all games at max.

I normally dont like really high resolutions anyways(on newer games) so I usually keep 1400x900 and use AA only if it doesn't lag the game a lot


And wow big post foobar, I see your point. But at some point AI is going to be better in RPGs. Your right about FPS AI, its getting better and better.
Maybe a super fined tuned, WELL done radiant AI with backup measures in case the NPC did something stupid, who knows?

[KVCC]

Also scripted routines are practical. When you are at a certain distance from a NPC, it dissapears so that the RAM and processing won;t be too crouded. With unpredictable routines, the computer would have to keep track of every NPC for every single moment on and on and generate random behaviour. That would be a killer. Also this distance dissapearing thiny is useful when npcs have to travel over long distances.

best example of how this could be useful: in the beginning of g1, after ou talk to diego, he sets out and starts walking away. If he didn;t dissapear you would find him right in front of you, everytime, killing your monsters and you couldn't get that first level.

As a good example for exploit: in g2 at one of the mininbg camps in the colony there is a guy who asks you to take him out of there. You say ok, i;ll get you out and then you can teleport to the pass. He will be generated automatically there.

About gothic 1, Diego doesn't disappear. 0.o

if you stand there he will, and then teleport to the colony, if you follow him he will take a direct route to the colony and kill any monster in its way.
But he was invincible anyways

[Maladiq]

About gothic 1, Diego doesn't disappear. 0.o

if you stand there he will, and then teleport to the colony, if you follow him he will take a direct route to the colony and kill any monster in its way.
But he was invincible anyways

That was what i said, when you are at a CERTAIN distance from a character, it will dissapear.

[scarlak]

It is impossible to tell a cRPG story, when the NPCs are not merely scripted, but rather acting of their own free will.

I take it no one here has played stalker then?

they delt with it rather well I thought...

[Gaminator]

I have played stalker recently. AI in this game is quite the same as in gothic series. Stalkers have their routines which are interrupted by some animals or their enemies. The same we had in gothic 1. Of course it is more complicated but it is scripted too. If it weren't, noone would be able to run it or finish the story